[OpenWrt-Devel] [LEDE-DEV] openwrt and lede - remerge proposal

Stijn Segers francesco.borromini at inventati.org
Thu May 11 09:39:49 EDT 2017

Thanks for the reply Imre.

Imre Kaloz schreef op 2017-05-11 15:13:
> Well hello there,
> On 2017-05-11 12:53, Stijn Segers wrote:
> <snip>
>> While, like most people, I'm happy progress has been made towards a
>> re-merge, there still seems quite some passive-agressive behaviour
>> present coming from certain people championing OpenWrt [1] - which, 
>> from
>> where I stand, seemed one of the reasons for starting LEDE. Stifling
>> 'free' speech (recently, even to the point of removing messages about
>> the pending re-merge on the OpenWrt forums) was another one; clearly,
>> that one is still very much present as well. One could say old habits
>> die hard, but it still feels like par for the course. What's up with
>> that? You want to remerge with the LEDE project, yet you cannot 
>> tolerate
>> any discussion about the actual process on the OpenWrt forums? That's
>> some fine duplicity right there.
> I guess our vocabularies differ quite a bit, given I see no
> passive-aggressive statements there.

Well, the 'Our design might be from 2000 but LEDE's is from 95' does 
come across as agressive, and the wink certainly doesn't make it any 
lighter. But you're right, I might just be reading into it. Either way, 
I have seen your mails right after the split as well, granted, your tone 
is more constructive at the moment, which is great. But those mails were 
full of anger, like a bull in a china shop, or a kid losing his toy.

> I hope you just misunderstood the
> ways some things have been worded, as your mail overemphasized certain
> parts to twist the picture. I could very well say you're championing
> yourself but somehow I don't see mails from you sent to any lists nor
> me about questioning the forum moderators' behavior. Of course you
> could have also stepped up and volunteer to be one, but either of
> these would have required more energy then this mail.
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning if you're right, but you
> should also be a bit more empathetic and understand a few things.
> First of all, forum moderator rights have been given out as we didn't
> have time to do it ourselves. This also means that after the first few
> days we didn't spend our time on monitoring what people with moderator
> rights are doing.

Understandably. But you also know that if people go berserk, that gives 
the project as a whole a bad name. It only further deteriorated the 
atmosphere. Some LEDE members hoped the OpenWrt forum would have been 
more welcoming to the project in the short term, since LEDE members from 
the onset made it clear that they did not intend to divide the 
community; but that didn't work out. But like you say: we're just human 
after all, and good intentions often aren't enough.

> Second, and this might be harder to accept, but to a certain degree
> when the first reply to anything is "OpenWrt is dead, go with LEDE",
> your behavior might generate a hostile reply.

A statement a lot of people certainly fielded, but I'm not one to say 
that. Yet, you cannot deny between LEDE and OpenWrt, since the split, 
the latter has been showing a considerably weaker pulse.

> Again, I'm not saying
> this is right, I'm saying this is standard human behavior.
> Back to my reply you love referring to: for me it seems you are the
> one who can't tolerate the discussion and would like to silence
> opinions (or how they can be expressed) you don't like. You might
> prefer baroque, I'm free to like renaissance.

Pointing the finger the other way does not invalidate my observations in 
any way, unfortunately.

>> I can't help but feel very uneasy about this. I'm not implying people
>> who stuck with OpenWrt don't want the best for the project and 
>> community
>> (most do), but we all know LEDE was created to remedy exactly these 
>> (and
>> other) shortcomings, which made OpenWrt languish to the point it had
>> come to a standstill. Not only did LEDE try to tackle these problems; 
>> it
>> has succeeded beyond expectation. Developers are more accessible, you
>> can actually talk to people instead of getting your head bit off,
>> contributions are booming, and the atmosphere overall is friendly and
>> helpful. Discussion is encouraged, not repressed Soviet-style.
> The reasons of the fork have been discussed quite a few times, and if
> you think any project will be free of internal politics over a decade,
> you might want to look into the history of FOSS projects in general :)

I might be a bit naive, indeed :).

> As the rest of your mail is mostly FUD,

No doubt, just like the lethargy was all make believe, right? Two mails 
in, but it won't be long before we get into a Godwin here, I reckon.

> let's stick to facts if you consider replying.

I asked about the facts - the final tally on the most contentious issue 
- and I'm not finding that fact. We both know that was the major issue 
at hand, one of the few non-negotiable items for you (and maybe other 
people). I see the vote go from a tie to 'we'll go with the OpenWrt 
monniker again', yet I cannot find a trace of how that happened. Quite 
possible I overlooked it.

> As the saying goes, in any relationship, there are
> three sides of the story: his side, her side and the truth.
> Both sides have hard feelings about certain topics, but this
> discussion started because we've decided to put those away. I can only
> ask you to try the same instead of sending mails like this.

All I asked for was a link to a mailing list post containing the final 
vote, which I cannot find. Since you're one of the pivotal members of 
this process, can you provide it?


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