[OpenWrt-Devel] Inquery

Daniel Golle daniel at makrotopia.org
Thu Dec 12 05:01:04 EST 2019

Hi Alberto,

On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 08:32:41PM +0100, Alberto Bursi wrote:
> On 11/12/19 18:54, Daniel Golle wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 05:37:26PM +0100, WRT Burner wrote:
> > > On 11/12/2019 15:22, Daniel Golle wrote:
> > > > And it's even needless to say that
> > > > replying to a spam email in which ever way will always make it worse.
> > > 
> > > +1. There is no constructive value in replying to spam. Let's keep openwrt-devel
> > > nice and clean.
> > > 
> > > On 11/12/2019 15:22, Daniel Golle wrote:
> > > > You statement "suck it" (guess what) is also an obvious
> > > > and disgusting example of a masculist culture which hurts our community
> > > > as a whole and I strongly believe we should not tolerate that.
> > > 
> > > -1. This is a software development mailing list, not tumblr.com.
> > 
> > '-1'? So I get right, you are saying it's ok to be insulting other
> > people because this mailing list is about software development?
> > If that's really what you wanted to say, I'm glad that's only a single
> > individual opinion coming from an email address which has never
> > actually been used on this mailing list.
> > And btw, this is your first 'contribution', and it's not even about
> > software development...
> > 
> He is just disappointed at your pointing out the "masculinist culture" in a
> place where he expected more maturity.

Maybe I don't understand this level of maturity where it can be
alright to use language which has the only purpose to deliberately
hurt other people. Maybe I even hope I will never get that 'mature'.

I pointed out the masculinist culture a statement like his
originates from just because that's what it is. Correct me if I'm
getting something wrong, but "suck it" basically says, "I'm the male
in the room here, so your rights are limited to please me sexually".
To me is not a border-line grey-zone of overdoing political
correctness and forcing everybody to use lots of virtue signalling
and a very specificly coded language changing every two weeks accoring
to fashion standards. It's not that he failed to use gender-correct
language or wrongly assumed someones identity or any of those things
which happen a lot without any bad intention involved.
But what Tom wrote was **meant** as an insult.

> Yours is mostly SJW-speak and I'm also not fond of it, I'll explain why.
> It is a double-edged blade.
> In this case your definition is technically correct, we all know what "suck
> it" implies.
> But this highly polarizing approach to life and people can (and does,
> especially in its dens like tumblr.com as mentioned) slippery slope into
> full blown hate and reverse oppression, which is equally bad.

I guess I partially agree with you one that. I have never visited
tumblr nor know much about what's happening there. To me, "social
justice" sounds like something desireable, however, I can also see that
the fight for that is also being misused to call-out on people who
didn't intend to do any harm to anyone in some cases.

However, I don't think we need this debate here in this case, as very
clearly "suck it" is just very obviously not nice, ie. violates the
rule #12 "be nice to each other".

> I'm not impressed by your reaction here, first thing you do is a blatant
> strawman logical fallacy and then proceed to attack him on his personal
> values as a person without even asking to clarify his position first.
> He just posted a single short sentence, for heaven's sake.
> This is EXACTLY an example of slippery slope into blind hate rage as I said
> above, and exactly why this kind of polarizing categorizations and
> statements should be avoided at all costs in a serious and sane environment.
> We should really not jump at each other's throats on a moment's notice like
> that, especially not in a software development mailing list.

I did asked for claritication, because it wasn't clear to me (see my
reply, there are some "if"s). I didn't make any assumptions on his
values, I was surprised and hoping that this would turn out to be just
a case of misunderstanding each other. Simply because it's hard for me
to imagine a setting where it would be ok to write "suck it" just
because this is about software development (and I still fail to follow
that logic, maybe you can explain that to me off-list).

I also agree that I don't want people to the scared to be super correct
and this is not the place to discuss subtle language details, for the
exact same reason that we will loose potential contributors.

Needless to say that WRT_Burner showed up out of nowhere (let me guess
what 'burner' means in that choice of a name) 



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